#and they wanted to avoid queerbait

[chirpsythismorning]

Milkvans complaining about bylers not mentioning Finn’s response about about the monologue is so funny, as if it didn’t support byler endgame even more 🤣

Finn saying I think he knows she thinks all this, bc I think there’s a reason why he says it, is because she— she— he’s been waiting to say it for a long time and she’s been waiting for him to say it for a long time. I think it’s an interesting thought, having that reciprocated. Yeah I think so. I don’t… I don’t know. I would hope… idk… great question and thought tho…

Like he literally cuts himself off before implying that Mike knows how El feels and that she wanted him to say I love you for a while, which is the very reason why he said it in the first place, despite seasons of attempting to say it, stalling repeatedly, only to fail each time up until now when there was literally no option not to in his eyes…

How is that a milkvan win?…

Not only that, but he didn’t make it sound hopeful for their future either. It’s still up in the air according to him. He makes a point of just saying interesting question over and over, only to not actually come up with an answer…

The assumption for many viewers, specifically milkvans, is that everything is great for Mike and El right now bc the monologue fixed everything. If that’s the case why does Finn end that question on a sort of question mark with it still up in the air? Least of all when you’re dealing with a queer ship on the other end, with him making much more of an effort to imply that it will be addressed. It’ll pay off vs. idk?…

This is like the casts reaction to the monologue all over again. The interviewer asked about Mike and El’s future and Finn basically danced around it saying he’s looking forward to all of their endings and is mostly interested to know if Mike will stay in Hawkins, adding at the end that he hopes Mike and El you know, find… happiness.

He’s always giving answers that work both ways. Byler endgame still fits in with whatever he says, whether milkvans want to acknowledge that or not.

Otherwise there would be no reason for him to try so hard to be ambiguous about Mike and El’s feelings, as if it’s this big spoiler… unless what’s about to go down is something most the audience won’t expect…

[fvckw4d]

The concept of queerbaiting annoys me. I was told that it refers to a work of fiction pretending to cater to a queer audience but then pulling back from it to avoid alienating homophobes, which is an incredibly specific thing. But a lot of people seem to think that it instead means "any time there's any gay subtex, metaphor, or ambiguity" or "whenever something from 1995-2012 was being a normal amount of homophobic for the era."

[justlightlysedated]

kinda wish that ppl would bring the same energy to male love interests of bi male characters as they do to female love interests

[captorations]

i was writing something else but then i checked the doctor who wiki and got slammed by a repeated line about the number of episodes per season getting reduced almost every fucking season for the past decade and wanted to start biting things

[indistinctive-mortal]

This. Good Omens has queer representation that can actually be called representation. Bc that is what they did. And they aren't backing out on it. It's canon, on display, unapologetic and clear, and that in and of itself makes it much more healthier and satisfying of a representation than destiel (the burning pile of bury your gays that spn/ the cw gave us and then tried to weasel themselves out of by saying 'its all up to interpretation')

no but the thing is. they KISSED. on screen. it was a real scene, not deleted, not removed from a script, it HAPPENED in front of the world's eyes. and AND the actors are normal about it and the whole cast and crew is normal about it and it's not vague and it's IMPORTANT. no matter the rest of it and what came after it, it happened!!

[cishetman]

tried watching the second season of good omens and that shit was excruciating i only got thru 20 min cuz it was in the corner when i was playing toontown

[fookinstevienicks]

the unhinged: "if buddie weren't going to happen they would just say so instead of giving us all these Hidden Messages for the faithful!"

Tim: "we backed off their friendship to avoid queerbaiting accusations but we're not going to do that any more"

also Tim: "romcom for bucktommy"

Oliver: "we're not doing the thing where the queer man is attracted to his friend"

Lou: "Tommy and buck are thriving"

JLH: "buddie isn't happening let it go"

Ryan who plays Eddie: unambiguously and clearly says "Eddie is heterosexual"

The show: "Also Eddie is cheating on his girlfriend with his dead wife's doppelganger"

unhinged howling: "COMPHET! DENIAL! FEELINGS REALIZATION! SUNSET LIGHTING! LASAGNA THEORY! COUCH! HUSBANDSSSSSSS! BUCKTOMMY BONESSSSSSS"

like idk fam I think it's that y'all can't be told anything you don't want to hear

[hestzhyen]

Sunken Ships and SoRiku

Hi internet void. I went feral and maybe you'll read the result.

KH has made a lot of choices around SoRiku from a narrative perspective that, in isolation, wouldn't amount to much. A heart-to-heart here, a questionable line there, and so on. The usual things that one would do to court a queer shipping audience in an otherwise het or unromantic work. And SoRiku circles have painstakingly documented every instance to show something that looks more like a consistent and intentional effort rather than a few dollops here and there to keep shippers engaged. There's... a lot. But one stupid, insignificant thing really shook me up and made me a believer in SoRiku Endgame, Actually.

Silly as it is, it's Nomura's reaction to people shipping RikuNami that gets me the most.

Generally speaking a writer doesn't want to interact with fandom shipping unless it's to urgently course correct. As in it would be catastrophic to the narrative if the fandom had the wrong idea. Otherwise it's best to just take note of how people are interpreting things and adjust the next installment accordingly, or live and let live. Keep distant and don't risk accusations of retconning/bad writing/queerbaiting in bad faith. So the normal reaction from Nomura seeing people get excited over RikuNami would have been to just do nothing. But instead, the scene was patched to downplay the smile, and Nomura went on the record to clarify that it's not a setup for a romantic relationship between Riku and Namine.

That's insane.

Why is it so important that Riku remain romantically uninterested in a girl he'd have a natural connection to, huh? What about accidentally implying RikuNami was so detrimental to the story that it was changed and explicitly addressed like that? Even if it wasn't meant to be, surely letting it play out like AkuRoku did would be enough. Just gently clarify and move on with the story (which pretty much sunk the ship on it's own anyway). You don't wade into fandom shipping and launch nuclear warheads like Nomura did against RikuNami unless you want to leave no room for doubt.

Torpedoing RikuNami also doesn't help them keep up appearances in terms of straightness at this point. Leaving it intact would only help the case of Riku and Sora being bffs with the strongest bond 5ever- a huge boon for the writing team if they wanted to avoid things looking too gay. Nomura et. al. are absolutely aware of the impressions and jokes about how gay KH is. And KH definitely would not be the first series to play in to queer ship teasing for the lols until it's time to pair everyone up at the end.

But they did the one thing you're not supposed to do if you're just aiming to queerbait: undermining the plausible straight ship. You don't eliminate the only straight option for your character like that for the sake of "he so gay" jokes! Having a straight option available is vital to make the bait; they don't have to be compelling or important to the story, they just have to exist. Yet at this point, Riku's only option is Sora. They went out of their way to ensure we wouldn't think anything else makes sense for him.

Holy. Shit.

[inawickedlittletown]

No Queerbaiting Here

A long time ago…I’m talking May of 2021, I wrote a meta post about queerbaiting. Essentially an essay. I wrote it right before the S4 finale of 9-1-1 aired because I was frustrated by Buddie fans calling Queerbait entirely like the boy that cried wolf. I still stand by it. Sort of. 

Now, even back then I was pretty clear about how 50/50 I was on Buddie ever going canon. (Maybe not in that post but certainly elsewhere) But, I shipped Buddie then and wrote a lot of fic and meta and participated in fandom. I never said it couldn’t happen…I just would never be bothered if it didn’t.

Where we stand now: It’s not going to happen. 

And where I stand now: fully immersed in Bucktommy. And what’s more, I am more than perfectly happy about Buck and Tommy staying together and going the long-run. Although I can still look at Buddie and think it’s a cute ship, I just don’t want it in canon. I would not be satisfied if the show went that way. But what’s more if Buck and Tommy don’t work out, that would be disappointing, but I’d be okay as long as they got to be happy. There is, after all, always fanfiction. 

So, I wanted to revisit this concept a bit now that Buck has been confirmed as Bisexual and now that he is in a relationship with a man. Not Eddie. Tommy. And somehow, some Buddie fans are still crying queerbait because their ship is not canon. That’s not how it works. Also…shipping works outside of canon, that’s the whole point of shipping. 

To reiterate from my original post on queerbaiting, here’s the definition from wikipedia:

“Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ representation. They do so to attract a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers.” 

Here’s where I stand: Buddie was abandoned a long time ago. If it was ever a real possibility, we won’t ever know. What we do know is that Oliver was aware that at one point he had given them the go-ahead to make Buck Bi. Whether this was by putting Buck and Eddie together or having Buck realize this another way, we just don’t know that. We don’t have that information and nor will it probably ever be provided to us. Narratively, I know that a lot of fans figured the timing of it fit with S4 and that particular finale but we really just don’t know despite what happened in the finale.

I found that interesting looking back at my own post from back then and the discussion that followed where some fans felt that the way the finale went would determine if Buddie would be another queerbait ship. (I think most people agreed after the will scene that it wasn’t queerbait because it did leave a kernel of hope that Buddie might still happen). 

And yeah, I guess you could argue that the network deciding not to go the route of a queer storyline points to missed opportunity. That doesn’t then mean that any queerbaiting occurred or that any fans are owed anything just because something that was set up or that the writers were writing towards was then scrapped by the network. Is it a shame that it didn’t happen in whatever way they wanted to play it out, sure, but only because Buck would have been confirmed queer earlier. In the same vein isn’t it nice that we have a confirmed Bisexual Buck now? That the show managed to bring it back to that.

A Buck that is happy and free and that has realized something so monumental about himself? Isn’t it nice that all the queer coding that Buck as a character has received since the start of the show is actually finally not just queer coding but full on character development? That we can look back at the show and see all the things Buck did around other men for exactly what they were. 

When Tommy first returned to 9-1-1 in S7, I think a lot of us were excited by the spoilers about Buck and Tommy because of Bi Buck, but also because this was the thing that could lead to Buddie. 

And then…then Tommy was actually on my screen and I doubted it. I actually thought maybe the spoilers were wrong and this was about Eddie and Tommy? That episode flipped things in such an expertly way that by the time Tommy and Buck were sharing a kiss for the first time I was right there with Buck. On a second watch, it is all there. Buck was never jealous because his friend was ignoring him. He was jealous because his best friend had the attention of the guy whose attention he wanted for himself. The writing on that was perfect and no amount of twisting it can change what happened on screen. 

Buck was not jealous because of Eddie. Tommy was never interested in more than friendship with Eddie. And Buck and Tommy have nothing to do with Buddie. Tommy is not a stepping stone, a way for Buck to be ready to then embark on a relationship with Eddie. That’s both disrespectful to Tommy and Buck, but just not what the story being told on the show is doing. 

The storyline is monumental. Having a big strong guy, a firefighter, figure out his sexuality in his thirties is such good storytelling and add to that Tommy. Someone that we already know, who already works as a first responder, and who can show up and wow Buck in such a way that he realizes something about himself? This is what I’ve always wanted. Because guess what, Buck never questioned his sexuality before this. Not when he met Eddie and not when he met anyone else, not until Tommy. 

Going into the new season we know a few things and one of those is that Buck and Tommy are thriving. The media coverage talks about them as a solid couple, it talks about Buck having someone to turn to and complain to. It talks about how they are still in the getting to know each other phase and I love that for them. I love how they are being treated and described and I can’t wait to see what plays out for them and how much of the build up of their relationship we may get to actually see. 

Do you know what the media and the show never talked about outwardly like this? Buddie. Whenever it came up it was always brushed aside in a way that was respectful to fans and what they saw, but without ever confirming or hinting that the show would ever go there. They never queerbaited anyone with Buddie, what they have done is say “yeah…we know what you see” and then turned around and given us a Buck and Eddie friendship and Buck kissing Tommy, going on a date with Tommy, and thriving with Tommy. 

So, no queerbaiting here on the show where half of the major canon pairings are queer. It’s actually more like some fans baiting other fans with theories and headcanons that just don’t fit.

[nerdy-frog98]

My sis-in-law is a huge fan of 911, so I’ve known about it for years. However, I was avoiding it because I didn’t want to get sucked into the queerbait (I’ve heard from multiple people mutiple times that 911 was well known for that).

But now I’m seeing all these spoilers that Buck is officially a canon bisexual, and that’s all I needed. I’m going to start watching now :) Wish me luck

(also congrats to the og fans that have been dealing with all that Buddie slander for YEARS. Y’all are tougher than me)

[teambyler]

Stranger Things has made the General Audience care too much for Will to deny a Byler ending

In Season 1, Will is kidnapped, survives a week without food or shelter in a nightmare dimension, and is implanted by a demon. He's been abused by his dad and bullied his whole life. Yet once he orients himself the FIRST thing he does is see Jonathan's hand and ask if he's okay:

In Season 2, he avoids telling everyone what's tormenting him because he doesn't want to worry them and he thinks he'd be misunderstood and babied. (He only tells Mike.) He gets possessed, has the guilt of causing people's deaths, and multiple times feels the pain of being burnt alive:

In Season 3, his friends aren't interested in D&D. Mike tells him something homophobic and cruel. Will realizes he's gay and closeted and has had his innocence stolen from him forever. He destroys Castle Byers full of sorrow and self-hate:

In Season 4, he's in love with his best friend and lives with the pain that Mike is dating his sister. STILL, he unconditionally helps Mike in the relationship, even if it denies himself a chance to be with him. He gives El the credit for the painting HE made for HIM:

For 4 seasons, the show has made people care for Will as he suffers alone. What logically happens in Season 5 is that he stops suffering and is no longer alone.

In Season 5, the Duffer Brothers have left an open plot point where MIke's love confession to El was based on a lie. He felt romantic love for the first time because WILL confessed his love for HIM. (I wrote something on that!)

The seeds for a "Byler twist" are all there. The main factor against a Byler endgame is a need to cater to the General Audience who might not be ready for a gay relationship between two main characters.

But not only would denying Byler be (by far) the worst instance of queerbaiting in media history, where Will's love for Mike is simply a device to prop up a straight relationship...

... It also would feel particularly CRUEL to Will. For 4 seasons, the Duffer Brothers have made sure the GENERAL AUDIENCE wants him to have a happy ending. And they have made clear that Will wants to be with Mike so much.

Nearly every other main character in ST has had their love interest. There is no main cast addition to s5, so there is no "other boy." If Byler happens, then the people who'd complain would not only want the gay boy, but WILL of all people (how dare you!), be the only main character to end up alone. He is America's Gay Adopted Son. The anti-Bylers would be isolated.

The Duffer brothers have set up the GA to cheer for Will pairing with the boy he loves. It would be a home run against homophobia.

Will told Mike he is the heart of the party. But for the GA, Will has been the heart of the show since the beginning. (And if Mike leads the party in s5, it's because Will's heart is on his shield.)

"Will really takes center stage again in [season] 5," Ross Duffer told Variety. "This emotional arc for him is what we feel is going to hopefully tie the whole series together."

The Duffers have said s4 was their Empire Strikes Back ending. Which makes s5 the show's triumphant Return of the Jedi.

Will will get his happy ending. It's all there!

-teambyler

[hareofhrair]

While I'm yelling about House MD--

I see in the notes of my House posts sometimes people being like "ooh, maybe I should watch that" and I always kind of wince and want to grab them like, yeah, please do, but also watch out. There's a reason we call it hate crimes md, and it's not just because of the queerbaiting.

So the thing about House is... It began airing in 2004. The 2000's were, for those of you who missed them, an... interesting time for what was then still called "political correctness." And these times were heralded by a certain Type of Guy, with a certain type of Edgy Humor. In pushing back against the admittedly very white liberal language policing of the PC movement, his goal was to be as offensive as possible, to every demographic possible. For those that had thought it through enough to justify this behavior, the claim was an intent to shake things up and force people to confront their unspoken biases and have hard conversations. The catch phrase was "I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally." These were your Jeff Dunhams, your Dane Cooks...

(For my part, I think it was, at it's heart, white guys attempting to parrot the marginalized groups demanding radical acceptance? A gay person saying "yeah I'm a faggot, what's it to you?" A disabled person saying "yeah I'm crippled, fight me about it. Call me a person with special needs again and I'll break your kneecaps with my cane." They picked up on the "we'd rather be called a slur than this avoidant, self righteous, language policing bullshit" and came away with "so I should call everyone slurs, got it.")

Enter House MD.

The tagline of the show is "Everybody Lies," and it's a very consistent theme throughout. The thesis of the show is that our society, with its shame and repression and bias, is incapable of real honesty. And approaching problems with soft, non confrontational language that talks around the issue instead of dealing with it only makes this worse.

So naturally, House is one of Those Guys.

I doubt there is a single episode in which he does not at some point, say a slur. When Foreman (the only black character and, until Kutner and Park, the only non white major character) is in the same scene with House, you can be absolutely certain he is going to say something racist, while staring at Foreman with a shit eating grin, daring him to make a fuss about it so he can monologue about how Affirmative Action is actually condescending to black people.

It would be one thing if this were strictly a character choice, something that was specifically wrong with House the person. Unfortunately, even when House is not involved the show itself is still, just, blindingly racist, all the time. Any time the patient isn't white, it's a horror show. Racist caricatures as far as the eye can see. It's also intermittently sexist, intersexist, nauseatingly fatphobic, and while it generally does better with disability than most any other show of the time, it is still shockingly ableist at times given the main character is, himself, physically disabled, and implied to be autistic as well.

What makes it worse is that they set House up as someone who wants to deflate people's egos and make them confront their biases ect, and then almost never puts him in a position where he's punching up. There's even a specific episode where he's treating a conservative campaign manager who released an insanely racist anti-migrant political ad, and his racism just doesn't get brought up. The ugly truth about himself he's forced to confront is that he's gay, and the man he's in love with and the people he surrounds himself with are, well. Conservatives.

All of this is not to say you shouldn't watch House or that House is a bad show. It's just very much a show from a very specific and unfortunate moment in the recent history of the ongoing battle for equality. The worst part is, its heart is in the right place, it is just doing a real bad job. It wants to be progressive. It just thinks being polite and respectful is weak and lame.

On that note! The show also features a canonically bisexual woman who actually says the word bisexual-- fucking wild for the time, where the best you generally got was vague allusions to "swinging both ways."-- And it shows her in relationships with both women and men. Including, very notably, Foreman. And if I need to tell you how revolutionary it was for them to show a romantic relationship between a black man and a white woman in the 2010's, take a minute and think about how many relationships like that you've seen in TV or movies since then. Or ever.

It centers on a nuanced and compassionate portrayal of an addict, and tackles the realities of that in an incredibly honest way I don't think I've seen anywhere else. Just the simple, consistent reminders that both House and the other addicts featured on the show are using for a reason, and it's often because they have medical needs that have been neglected by bigoted doctors. There's a whole arc where they try to restrict House's use of painkillers by reducing his prescribed dose to basically a handful of ibuprofen, claiming he only thinks he needs such a high dose because he's addicted and he'll "adjust" to a lower dose in time-- IE, get used to just living with the extreme pain. Unsurprisingly, the increased pain makes him awful to be around, worse at his job, and eventually drives him further into addiction. The way the show deals with this is honestly fantastic, especially given, again, this was the 2000's and 2010's. For a somewhat contemporary comparison, take a look at how addicts are portrayed in Breaking Bad, which came out four years after House in 2008. The general attitude towards addicts was not great.

This show has a lot going for it. The relationships and the stories it tells are honestly incredible. But it is also very flawed, and people should be aware of that going in.

If you want to start watching House, awesome! But maybe look up trigger warnings first.

(Also, completely aside from All That^ there's also the genre typical medical gore and body horror, so, you know, also be prepared for that!)

[italianpersonwithashippersheart]

Hey bestie, dropping by with a mea culpa. When Peaceful Property started, you expressed concern that GMMTV was inching toward a model of using bl pairs in shows that would avoid being explicitly gay but still draw on shipping fandom to be successful. Coming off The Trainee, which was not a bl but did have expIicitly queer characters and romance subplots, I wasn't sure the intentions were quite that dark for PP, but having now finished it and seen the way some in the production have interacted with shipper fans, I have to call it: you were right to be concerned. At no point was this show ever a bl and none of its principal characters are canonically queer, but they successfully leveraged the TayNew ship to have fans interacting with it as if it was in fact a gay love story, that idea and fan commentary was explicitly encouraged by the creators, and the show has been quite successful despite never actually delivering on all the TayNew bait. I'm definitely concerned that we might have somehow swung back around to queerbaiting being seen as acceptable and good, as long as it features popular branded pairs. I don't have any bigger thoughts to offer about how this should be addressed, but just wanted to come back and say you were valid for naming that!

Thank you. I didn't want to be correct. And I am still hoping to wrong about what this says about where GMMTV is going.

But I am not gonna lie, seeing the posts about the finale did regnite the massive fury I had at this project when it was first called a bromance. So I am going to use your ask as an opportunity to vent.

FOR THE RECORD: I am not mad at you, or at the people and mutual on my dash that have enjoyed the show and are claiming as gay out of spite. My anger is at GMMTV and at GMMTV alone.

THEY DID THIS SHIT TWICE ALREADY!!! Back to fucking back.

I know High Schoool Frenemy is being watched by like 5 people on tumblr. But it's doing well outside of tumblr. They are using bl style fanservice with the 2 main boys of that show. I have seen the shippy content and compilations along with the other bl couples. Not to mention people like Jojo saying those characters are the his new favorite ship on twitter.

AND I AM SO PISSED!!!!

I am glad you brought up TayNew because there is no doubt in my mind that they used TayNew for Peaceful Property as a test. They knew there could be backlash. They knew the bl fandom could have rioted. But they also knew that if it that rage would have been directed at TayNew not at the director, not the company but TAYNEW.

And I think TayNew knew this. Because they spend weeks on social media doing preintive damage control, I have seen the posts of them (or at least New) saying it wasn't going to be romantic. I don't think the two of them forgot how they were left to eat the shit alone over the bullshit backlash during the TayGun kiss situation with GMMTV doing fuck all for them.

And what pisses me off is that BL audience didn't even give a backlash. They eat that shit up like it was fucking icecream.

The BL audience is literally doing their job for them. They are taking a show with some gay subtext and running with it.

They are showing up for the fanservice (again broder audience outside of tumblr), and gleefully closing their eyes and ears and saying well I Think It's Gay.

What do you think Mega Corporation GMMTV is going to take from the success and no backlash? If the answear is anything but: We can produce half of the BLs as usual and make the rest Bromances, you have more faith in corporations then I do.

Because Bromances can be watched by non BL audiences as well. The BL niche is a big one, but it is still a niche.

And now they won't even have to bother inserting arguable quality gay commentary or struggles or homophobia. Or any gay kissing, no more workshops. No more worries about how effective these potential straight boys are going to be at playing gay. All they have to do is making them do fanservice, and they are great at training people for that. Or better yet, actually use one or two ships that have kissed before and done actual BLs.

Will they stop doing BL at all, obviously not, you gotta give the BL audience something to remind them they can still show boys kissing, and we have the Ex Morning and Jojo that will never actually stop making BLs and some gay shit. But if in the next line up we will more bromances, and eventually we get half BL and half bromances I wouldn't be surprised.

Of course maybe I am just pessimistic and cynical. Maybe the proto bdsm in the heart killers is enough to persuade people that I am totally wrong. I guess we will see about that.

Thanks again for the ask and the oppurtunity to vent a little. Again I don't fault anyone for enjoying this, it was design to get the BL audience watching.

I will personally be keeping with my own resolution and never watch another gmmtv show live ever again, maybe binge the few that sound interesting and that's it.

At least I can find comfort in the idea that that other companies do not have the same level of BIG cast of boys and big budget to do the same thing and follow in the bromance trend.

[dubiousculturalartifact]

Obviously I’ve been queerbaited before, like, a genuinely incalculable number of times, and maybe thinking Buddie might actually go canon is a ‘fool me sixteen times, shame on me’ scenario, but I think one big thing that’s keeping my hope alive is this thought: If you genuinely believe that Buddie isn’t going to go canon, 100% zero possibility and absolutely no intention of trying... Then you also have to believe the people who create the show we’re all fans of are purposefully cruel dicks. 

Because we have SEEN what it looks like when the showrunner of 911 knows there is no possibility of it happening, has no plans of it, and is generally trying to avoid accusations of queerbaiting.

It looks like S5 & S6. Little bits here and there, the odd important scene to throw breadcrumbs… but a lot of keeping the two characters apart, being circumspect in interviews, PR shut downs on the actors, etc. The show has proven they are capable and willing to exactly that!

So indulge me, and imagine for a second. They had the conversation with the new network, and the execs told them they wanted to continue with the status quo, to write as if Buddie is never going to go canon, BUT were willing to bend so far as to make one of them queer, to keep the fans happy.

What would that look like?

I don't know, call me foolish.... But I think it would look like keeping the same dynamic from The Drought Seasons. Having them be friends and important to each other but still fairly disconnected, not having as much screen-time, etc, It would look like having Buck’s coming out arc be a SEPARATE, individual narrative. If they just wanted to write Tommy and Buck, and that's it, they could have done things differently.

There are just so many conceivable ways they could have written Buck’s coming out arc, to almost completely separate it from Eddie and have it be made clear, in no uncertain terms, that Buck is bi but that doesn’t mean he cares about Eddie like that, that Eddie is a hetero McHetero.

Buck’s coming out arc could have included him being jealous because he’s suddenly faced with Tommy in the flesh and is insecure about how he was technically ‘Tommy’s replacement’ at the 911, with Eddie not relevant to it at all, or have Maddie and Chimney be the ones to interrupt The Date, or literally any other scenario that didn’t make it all about Eddie. 

They could have had one short scene where Eddie and Buck talk about it, and then the rest would be like, Buck talking to Hen about being queer, Buck interacting just with Tommy and getting to know him, Buck doing a research binge about bisexuality and info-dumping at an inappropriate time during a call, etc etc etc.

That’s how you tell that story and only be writing it for the proverbial ‘general audience’.

But they didn't. They purposefully reversed direction. They chose for Buck’s coming out arc to... highlight his nigh-feral jealousy over Eddie forming a homosocial bond with another guy, having said guy repeat with genuine surprise and shock that it was him and not Eddie that Buck was interested in, have Eddie interrupt their date, have Buck be more worried about lying to Eddie than the fact that he’s queer at all, have Maddie say what she did to Buck about telling Eddie in specifically ambiguous terms…

In a season that also included the Fire Extinguisher Incident, and Buck saying he ‘wishes he could help’ with Eddie’s sexual frustration, and a big increase in social media engagement, and having Buck being Eddie’s rock in the last few episodes while he had a bizarrely platonic affair with his dead wife's doppleganger…

If they did that while KNOWING the plan was actually for Buck/Tommy endgame and Eddie riding off in the sunset with a hot female firefighter who has a cool motorcycle or whatever the fuck, or them both dying in a freak car-washing accident, or….

If they GENUINELY planned that? If the entire Buck jealousy plotline was intended to be nothing more than a deliberate queerbait-and-switch? Then they’re fucking assholes, sorry. They would have to know full well exactly what they were doing, how many people’s hopes and emotional investment they were toying with... If they were actually planning to keep dragging it along for seasons more of baiting and dangling things in front of us, while knowing categorically that they had no plans to deliver? That would be genuinely GOD TIER levels of specific, intentional queerbaiting.

Which could be the case! I won't deny that. Shows have done it before, plenty of times. Tim et al could be callous bastards deliberately instructing the actors to wink it up in interviews and share suggestive Tiktoks, and writing Buck’s coming out arc as being entirely focused around Eddie and throwing out hints... All while laughing behind Buddie fans' backs about our gullibility, how we’re keeping the show trending on the force of our delusions, etc. Maybe that's it! Maybe they just genuinely enjoying fucking with people. Or maybe they were just shitty enough writers that they didn't know what they were doing, and it was all a total accident, somehow, the proverbial monkeys pounding at keyboards and accidentally spelling out B U D D I...

But you know what? Call it naive, but I prefer to think they’re not huge assholes, or hugely incompetent.

That there might actually be a point to all this, somewhere down the line.

I guess we'll find out.

[cut-clap]

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR VENOM THE LAST DANCE!!!!

talking about symbrocks relationship in the movie and how it is NOT queerbait!!

HOT TAKE BUT!!!! i don't think that eddie and venoms relationship regressed since ltbc. i just got back from rewatching it in theaters and i was very focused on the dialogue and how their characters were acting, so here's a mini analysis!!

i TOTALLY get why people are saying that eddie is being mean but at the same time he kinda. isn't. he's being snarky and short, absolutely, but all for good reasons. it's very similar to the last two films. i meannn you'd be pretty upset too if you found out you were being hunted by creatures DESIGNED to hunt you and cannot be beat!! (plus being flung off a plane lmfao)

but then there's also the other scenes that stand out a lot more to me, wherein eddie and venom are acting SO much better. right after they fought the people running the dog fights, after the river scene, in the van with the moon family, in vegas in front of the impersonator, and of course, the area 55 + all scenes afterwards.

during the fight with the people running the dog fights, we see eddie being so much more involved. he's not always encased in venom and he's helping out. it's meant to show how much more in sync they've gotten and how much they trust each other. even their dialogue is sweet(ish. for a venom movie).

after the river scene, eddie is very distressed and guilty about killing another person. venom tries to comfort him, but eddie lashes out. he doesn't know what else to do, or how to feel, as he had just killed someone. it is pretty in character for anyone to snap after taking a life!! more importantly, venom does not blame him for that. (plus the line of them being together for a year wheww!!)

in the van, venom talks about he and eddie wanting "this life" ie. referring to a family. the scene is quiet, leaving room for them to reflect. they want to live, of course, but they both want a family. together. there is a distinct lack of dialogue meant to hurt the other. when being dropped off, martin says (along the lines of, can't remember exactly) "this isn't goodbye". later in the movie, martin comes back with his family and saves venom and eddie.

in vegas, venom mentions again that he wants to see the statue of liberty. eddie reassures(!!!!!!) that they will soon. he even agrees to see a broadway show, despite hating musicals. the scene cuts to and lingers on a newlywed couple. they long for the simplicity of that. it goes hand-in-hand with their chat in the van, about wanting a family. it's clear that they have grown a lot.

in area 55, the first thing eddie does when he wakes up is talk to venom. he's confused by the absence of a response. then there is the fight, venom and eddie bonding once more, etc etc. the entire time in that scene, the entire MOVIE for that fact, they have been running and fighting. they are tired. they try multiple times with help to go for some form of a killing blow, and none of them work. the two know that they can't beat the xenophages.

in the helicopter, they have a short talk. eddie is wounded and exhausted, but he is very aware that they have to beat the xenophages one way or another. he keeps up the same beat from the first two movies- FULLY PREPARED TO DIE WITH VENOM in order to save the world. that is a CONSTANT with their relationship. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE THEY SHOULDVE KISSED OR SOMETHING DURING THIS SCENE!!!! but again. they are worn out from everything. eddie doesn't have the energy to really process a proper goodbye. he just knows he wants, and is ready to, die with venom.

when venom is consuming(covering?) the xenophages and launches eddie out, eddie is surprised. eddie reaches out to him, as a last ditch attempt to stay with him, hoping. it's symbolic. it's beautiful. it's sad. he is confused by venom avoiding him, choosing to cover him with the door instead. venom lingers on the door, as a sign to say he wished he could stay. eddie is distraught. he is not ready to live a life without venom. venom wants eddie to live the life they both want. eddie wants to either live his life with venom, or die by his side. venom says "don't forget me" and "this is not goodbye". he remembered that martin came back. he is promising to eddie that he will find his way back home too.

there is the explosion, and eddie is scene laying on the ground. he looks almost content, likely assuming that he, too, is a goner. he wants to join venom in death.

finally, there is the post-helicopter scene. once again, eddie calls out to venom, wanting to talk about his "crazy dream". once told that venom is dead, and that they could not have been together, eddie says "but i need him".

eddie movies to new york. he visits the statue of liberty. he says, out loud, "i won't forget you, buddy". in the background, "memories" starts playing (side note: i hate maroon 5 so much and this threw me so off guard). the song is about missing a loved one. venom was eddies loved one. his other. their bond was deep. they have been essentially MARRIED since the FIRST MOVIE, and tld is entirely surrounded by that fact!!

not everything can be spoonfed about their relationship!! you can't make everything surface level, and this was NOT queerbait. they did what they could. sony isn't gonna allow another symbrock kiss scene. the only reason as to why the first one was greenlit is likely because anne was the host and she and eddie began to make out afterwards, so it was still "straight". (let's not forget it was venoms idea though..)

it's messy, it's weird, it's perfect. there were also LOTS AND LOTS of parallels to the first movie!! so much so that i would probably have to do another post about it. "til death do they part", is a heartbreakingly perfect tagline for the film. also, i said this before and i'll say it again, but they should have used "careless whisper" as a final song. MISSED POTENTIAL!!

let's not forget that the movie was initially TWO HOURS LONG. there was at least 20 minutes of extra screen time cut that i hope we can see in an extended version!!

TLDR: the symbrock scenes heavily outnumber the "eddie being a bitch" scenes and this movie WAS EXTREMELY GAY!!!!

[lemotmo]

This is what I keep coming back to as well

A. Where do you stand on the whole queerbaiting argument?

Q. In the past this show has not been guilty of queerbaiting. I do agree that Buck and Eddie have both always been queer coded characters, and I believe Eddie has always been the more queer coded of the two, but the show never really sold them or marketed them as a 'couple'. Yes they absolutely played up their pairing and popularity but never in an overtly couple way. They definitely towed the line, but they never crossed it. Also in years past the show has explicitly stated things like 'we have no plans to go there at this time', or even 'stick to fanfiction'. It was always hinted at and broached as a maybe in interviews and reviews but it was never openly discussed by the show or Oliver and Ryan as a genuine plausibility. And even though many of their scenes have felt coupley throughout the series run they always gave them love interests separate from one another. That has not been the case the last two seasons. They do not have the shield of 'we told people it wasn't happening', and 'well canonically speaking we haven't shown any indication that their more than really close friends', this time. This time if they don't do it they will absolutely be guilty of queerbaiting. It's one reason why I genuinely think they are going to pair them together.

I do think the term queerbaiting gets thrown around way too much in fandom spaces because fandoms often create ships that a show never had any plans to make canon. Marketing will absolutely play up a pairings popularity, as is the shows right, but that doesn't mean they're insinuating the show is going to do something with them from a romantic perspective. Last season, but especially so far this season, 911 has absolutely insinuated, and loudly, a romantic possibility exists between the two. Eddie has been in 90% of Buck and Tommy scenes. He's been a subject or topic in other scenes he wasn't physically present in as well. That is intentional. And while I also think fandoms give far too much credit to shows for patterns and theories that are more coincidental than anything else, some patterns and theories do feel intentional. I will fully admit that I believe the couch and lasagna theories. I also increasingly buy into the color theory because there is ample evidence that lends it validity, but most things a show can excuse away as coincidence. But you cannot excuse purposely writing a character into scenes for another couple as a coincidence. They are intentionally placing Eddie in the middle of that relationship. They have not at any time verbally discouraged or dismissed the increasingly public speculation of Buddie this time around either. And Tim, Oliver and Ryan have all had numerous opportunities to shut the speculation down. They've placed themselves in this position and they don't have plausible deniability on their side this time. Not doing it would bring warranted queerbaiting accusations and probably consequences the show wants to avoid. As I've stated numerous times, anon, the show just doesn't really have an option anymore.

Thank you Nonny!

Yes. To all of this. There is no way back from here. They need to finish this story and hopefully do it justice.

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